In the Matter of the Marriage of: )




Petitioner, )


and ) Case No. 94-3846-D-3




Respondent. )




BE IT REMEMBERED That the perpetuation testimony

of KAREN JANE VEZINA was taken as a witness on behalf of the Petitioner before Debra J. Dugan, a Certified Shorthand Reporter for Oregon, on September 8, 1997, beginning at the hour of 3:30 p.m. at the office of Cristina Sanz, 2 North Oakdale, Medford, Oregon.

{BOn}A P P E A R A N C E S{BOff}


Attorney at Law

2 North Oakdale

Medford, OR 97501


Attorneys at Law


220 North Oakdale

Medford, OR 97501

{BOn}C O N T E N T S{BOff}

{BOn}Examination by:{BOff} {BOn}Page:{BOff}

MS. SANZ 4, 34


{BOn}S T I P U L A T I O N{BOff}

At said time and place the following stipulation was entered into between the attorneys present in behalf of the respective parties:

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED that all irregularities as to notice of time and place and manner of taking said perpetuation testimony are hereby waived. Parties have stipulated to perpetuate testimony pursuant to ORCP Rule 39(i), and waive notice and objections to notice.

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED that pursuant to Rule 39(i)(6), the perpetuation examination shall proceed as set forth in subsection D. All objections to any testimony or evidence shall be made at the time of the deposition and any objections not made at the deposition shall be deemed waived.

IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED that the reading and signing of said perpetuation testimony by the party and the filing thereof are hereby expressly waived.



was thereupon called as a witness on behalf of the

Petitioner and, after having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:



Q Can you please spell your full name; state your full name for the record?

A Karen Jane Vezina, V, as in Victor, e-z-i-n-a.

Q Okay. Ms. Vezina, you're a resident of Jackson County?

A Yes.

Q For how long?

A Six months, formally of Josephine County.

Q Okay. And you have been in the Rogue Valley for how long?

A Five years.

Q And you are currently employed?

A Yes.

Q Where at?

A At the Rogue Valley Family YMCA.

Q Where is that located?

A 522 West Sixth, Medford.

Q And what position do you hold there?

A Youth and Family Development director.

Q What is that exactly, can you describe what you do?

A Responsible for all child care programs, preschool, infant, toddler, and all the summer programs.

Q Okay. How long have you held that?

A Since June 12th, 1993.

Q Okay. What do -- I'm sorry, your exact position that you hold there?

A Youth and Family Development director.

Q Have you had education or licensing related to the kind of work you do?

A Yes, I have. I have a Bachelor's degree in elementary education with a minor in psychology, credential teacher for five years, and then moved to Oregon, and now hold this position.

Q When did you first hear about this family?

A To the best of my recollection, it was '94.

Q Do you remember what, how old Teddy was?

A She was 14 months, yeah.

Q And how did you -- who did you first meet?

A Susan came into register Teddy for child care in the toddler room and needed to start right away. And I gave her the tour, gave her the whole run down of what happens in the child care center. And she went ahead and signed up and she paid for the month.

Q Okay. And how much child care did she ask the Y to provide?

A She was looking for full-time care.

Q Did you know anything else about the circumstances of this family?

A She, she did cry through most of the process of registering her; she expressed that she and her husband were separating and was in need of this child care right away.

Q Did she work at that time?

A Did she?

Q Yes.

A Yeah, she worked at Bear Creek.

Q Did they mention who would be picking up or dropping off Teddy at the day care?

A She did say that her husband would be doing that, would be dropping off and picking up.

Q And when was Teddy to begin?

A It was to begin the next day from registration, which memory serves was actually a Monday of the following week. And she did pay for the month in advance.

Q Okay. And so when that first day came, that Monday, what happened?

A Teddy didn't come. And so we just sort of let it go that day. And the following day when she didn't come, I called Susan and said she hasn't come; and Susan was surprised by that and said that she would take care of that. And then the next day Teddy did come.

Q Probably a Wednesday?

A It was probably Wednesday, yeah.

Q And who brought Teddy to day care that Wednesday?

A Her father did.

Q Okay. Can you describe what happened that day?

A He brought Teddy in, and he seemed to be agitated, he seemed to be extremely concerned about dropping her in a child care center; was very critical of the staff, the way the staff was dressed, the way they looked. And one of my staff came to get me because by that time she was crying, she was so upset. So I went down there and --

Q Okay. And this was -- let me interrupt you. This staff person was somebody who was at the toddler center where Teddy was?

A Yeah, right.

Q That staff person actually met Mr. Coutsoukis?

A Yes.

Q So you were called by a staff person to go?

A Maureen, yeah.

Q Okay. And when you went into the room where Mr. Coutsoukis and Teddy were, what was going on?

A Again, he seemed upset that he was leaving his daughter in a child care center; was lecturing, well, began to lecture me about children, uhm, being left in child care centers, they're the ones that got put in old folks homes because their children wouldn't care about them. And just seemed extremely agitated, upset that he was leaving Teddy there.

Q Okay. Was it -- I mean, I assume there are parents who are upset when they leave their child in child care for the first time?

A Yes.

Q To what degree, how would you compare his level of stress or being upset with other parents that you have dealt with?

MS. LORI: And let me just interject as to relevancy; and also my motion in limine, I'll make that now, which is object to any opinions which are not based on personal knowledge, object to any opinions that are based on hearsay.

And what we're doing is I make the objection, you go ahead and answer because otherwise we have to call the judge, and rather than interrupt the whole thing like that, we're just going to let the judge decide as a group.


BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q Before you answer that question, let me ask you first a couple of things. You actually saw Mr. Coutsoukis that morning, correct?

A Oh, yes, I was there, uh-huh.

Q And when you deal with other parents who drop off their children, is it a practice for you to meet the parents?

A I have met them during the registration process, so it's the normal responsibility of the instructor, who is in the classroom, to meet that parent that morning, get them situated, show them where to put everything. It's not normal for me to come down to the center.

Q Had you opportunities where you have actually been present when the children and their parents are first attending day care?

A Yes, I have; especially for infants, I try to go down there for the first day when the parents are leaving their newborn.

Q You make it a point?

A Yes.

Q And so you can go ahead and answer my question, when you're comparing other parents you have dealt with and Mr. Coutsoukis, how would you describe his level of --

A Okay. The parent that I see most often is sad, they're feeling separation anxiety about leaving their child. They're not critical about the cleanliness or how the staff is dressed or the fact that there are day care centers and that women should be at home with their children. It was a completely different feeling.

Q And what exactly was Mr. Coutsoukis, what was his objections?

A His objection to child care centers as a whole, that Teddy had to be in a child care center, the way the staff was dressed, and the cleanliness of the facility.

Q Did he make any personal comments, attacks, or statements about any of your staff members?

A When Maureen came to me, she was in tears and said, he told me that I wasn't dressed okay; but I did not hear him say that to her.

Q Okay. Did he make any other comments that were derogatory or negative towards staff when you were there?

A He just, again, it was all very general about child care centers as a whole, that he felt that people weren't dressed professionally enough and that the place was clean enough.

Q What was Maureen or other staff members wearing that day?

A From what I can remember -- I mean, I have a dress code: No jeans, no t-shirts, that kind of thing. So as far as I was concerned, they were dressed professionally.

Q Okay. Did he complain about the toys or other items that you have in the day care?

A He was concerned that the things that we had in the toddler room were not educational enough, or stimulating enough for Teddy's needs. He didn't say generally for the other children; he spoke mainly about his own child.

Q Okay. What other items do you have in the toddler room for the children?

A The children play with -- I mean, there are stuffed animals in there, but the majority of things are age appropriate manipulatives, putting shapes into other shapes that match, uhm --

Q Puzzles?

A We have puzzles, we have things that the kids sit in that they play with manipulatives in front of them, those kinds of things. We oftentimes put them in a highchair, or sit them at a table and they paint or Play Dough, those kinds of activities.

Q Did you ask -- what was his demeanor like as he was, as you put it, lecturing you or --

A I felt that he was very agitated, that he was extremely uncomfortable with the situation, that he had a lot of anger. And, uhm, I think that I was the recipient of that anger; whether it was directed at me or not, I happened to be the person who was receiving it; that he was bringing his daughter there against his will.

Q What was the level of his voice?

A With me, it was fairly even. According to what the staff said later, he --

MS. LORI: Objection as to hearsay.

BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q Did you hear him as you were approaching?

A I could hear his voice, yes.

Q As you were approaching the toddler room?

A As I was approaching into the room, I could hear his voice, yes.

Q Was it loud?

A Yes.

Q Was it angry?

A Yes, agitated.

Q Were there other children there present?

A Yes.

Q Not just Teddy, other --

A Not just Teddy; there were other children present in the toddler center.

Q How did you try to resolve that problem?

A With the other children being there?

Q With Mr. Coutsoukis, yes?

A With Mr. Coutsoukis, I asked to go out in the hall to continue the conversation so that was out of the room, which he did do. We went out and we continued to talk. I explained what the center was, how we do it, I was disagreeing with him about the cleanliness. I asked for specifics, those kinds of things. And then he left, and he did not leave Teddy there the first day.

Q Okay. Was Teddy with him the entire time?

A Yes, the entire time. He held her the entire time.

Q What happened, what happened next?

A He left for the day. He did bring her back the following day.

Q I'm sorry, he did?

A He did bring her back the following day. And he again, he was more pleasant this time, but he still seemed agitated and concerned. He had one of the staff watch him while he changed Teddy's diaper to show exactly how, what his expectations were about how it was done. The staff told me -- hearsay -- but it was 15 minutes, uhm, that that process went on. I told them to come and get me when he came because he needed to deal with me, that I didn't think the staff needed to be subjected to that.

Q Were you there during the diaper change?

A I was there during the diaper change, part of it. I don't know how long it had been going on before I got there.

Q And when you were there, how long did the diaper change go for?

A Over five minutes, I would gather, but -- okay, yeah.

Q Okay.

A And was very specific about what he wanted her to be doing during the daytime, uhm --

Q Do you know what that was?

A He wanted, uhm, her to be able to be free to move at all times. She wasn't walking yet, and wanted her to be able to pull herself up, walk along the couch, those kinds of things, uhm, have things put in front of her, to be continually stimulated.

Q And that is the goal that you have, also?

A Uh-huh, oh, absolutely.

Q Did he make a particular comment about when you changed her diaper, where you should be looking, or something to that effect?

A He was very specific about the cleanliness of, you know, we went through the process of how we change a diaper, how it's documented on the daily transition sheet, and that kind of thing. Uhm, he wanted to be very clear that it shouldn't be a quick process, that Teddy should be stimulated while you're changing her diaper in a visual sense, looking at her, talking to her, that kind of thing; and that the cleanliness should be extreme. I mean, he just modeled picking her up, the cleanliness of her rectum, that kind of thing. I mean, he was very specific about how he wanted it done.

Q And what did you think about what his recommendation was?

MS. LORI: Objection as to relevancy.

BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q In terms of how the diaper would be changed, in your experience?

A My experience is that that's how we change a diaper. But it's also my experience that when you're in a center and you have a diaper changing schedule, you know, and stimulation is wonderful and it's why we have the things above the diaper changing, and that kind of thing, but we don't spend 15 minutes changing a diaper.

Q Okay. What happened? He left Teddy there that day?

A He did, uh-huh. And came back, uhm, it was after lunch -- it wasn't at the end of the day like 5:00 o'clock, but it was after lunch. And Teddy was in a, it's a seat that looks like sort of a car, and we strap them in and they have things in front of them, a little mirror, little buttons to play with.

Q Is it a little bicycle, or a little --

A It's like a little bicycle thing, you know, you just strap them in. It's just a visual stimulation where the kids can reach out and turn the knobs and that kind of thing.

Q Is it an actual bicycle, or does it look like --

A It looks like a motorcycle, bicycle thing; you know, it's just a kid's toy, or toddler's stimulation toy.

Q But it does not actually move?

A It does not move.

Q Okay.

A No, it does not move.

Q The goal of this toy is you put the child seated --

A Uh-huh, sitting up, to reach out. And there's little buttons to push that honk, or little mirrors, little things to turn, that kind of thing. We strap them in, it's a little seat belt so they don't fall out. Sometimes toddlers tip, so it's just, it's a safety precaution. Again, a staff member came to me and said --

MS. LORI: Objection as to hearsay.

THE WITNESS: And said to me, Mr. Coutsoukis is having a fit in the toddler center because he said that we have tied his daughter down. And I didn't understand what she was talking about, all I knew is I needed to get there. So I went down there, and I think tirade is a correct word, he was beside himself, he was screaming, he had fingers, pointing fingers in staffs' face saying you tied down my child, I'm reporting you, this is abuse. And I came in, I said, can we step outside. No, the screaming at me and pointing fingers, you have tied my child down, she should not be restrained, she needs to be mobile, I told you she needs to be mobile, she needs to learn how to walk. And I tried to explain to him the process of what this thing was for, it's visual stimulation, reaching out, it's developmentally appropriate for her age group.

And at that point, I said, you're banned, finished with you, you're not going to swear at my staff or put my your finger in my face, you need to go. And I left the toddler room, I went and called Susan and I told her that he could no longer pick up or drop off, that I wasn't going to be subjected, nor was the staff, to that behavior. And she said fine.

BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q How long were you and Mr. Coutsoukis in --

A Five to ten minutes.

Q And was his demeanor the same throughout that five to ten minutes?

A Uh-huh.

Q Yes?

A And then he just took his things and left, yes.

Q And Teddy was with him?

A He was holding her, yes.

Q And were there other children in the room?

A Yes.

Q How many others -- other staff members were there?

A Yeah, there were other staff members there, also.

Q Were your staff members concerned about their safety at all?

MS. LORI: Objection as to relevancy and hearsay.

THE WITNESS: They were, they felt threatened.

BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q Did you feel threatened?

A Uhm, no.

Q Were you concerned about his behavior?

A Yeah, I was concerned; it was completely inappropriate, but I didn't fear for my personal safety.

Q Why did you ban him?

A I just felt that this wasn't appropriate for my staff everyday to have to come and get me, or that other children are involved, other parents could have been in the room. I just don't think it's appropriate; I wouldn't let anybody speak to me or the staff like that, so --

Q Okay. Did you see him later that day?

A Yes, I did.

Q Where was he?

A He was a -- it was a few hours later and he was standing outside the front door. And I went outside, Teddy was asleep in the car, and he and I had a conversation about what had taken place earlier in the day. And he was completely different, his demeanor was completely different. And we had a conversation about what had taken place and why I banned him, basically.

Q Why was he still there?

A I'm not sure.

Q How many hours do you think it was since the time --

A It had been a couple hours, and I'm not sure why he came back. I mean, Teddy was asleep in the car; he wasn't leaving the car unattended, he was standing there.

Q Right, next to the car?

A Yeah.

Q Was he nervous, was he calm, was he -- what was he?

A He was smoking a cigarette and we just had a conversation about the views of child care centers. And we talked about Greece and we talked about the different views on women and roles and what's appropriate and how it just, it was not okay for him for Teddy to be there. And I explained to him how it was not okay for him to have the anger. And he talked a lot about cultural differences and that it was just his way of expressing himself.

Q You did not change your mind in terms of allowing him to return?

A No, I did not. No, I did not.

Q Why not?

A I still felt that it was inappropriate that if there was anything not to his liking, that that temper could reappear, the agitation could come back. And I do at some point have to protect the staff from anything that they find uncomfortable and threatening.

Q Okay. He took issue in terms of cleanliness of the infant toddler program?

A Of the center itself, yeah.

Q Did you see, when you walked in there, did you see anything that was amiss in terms of the level of cleanliness you actually expect from your staff?

A Not, not that I can recall, no.

Q Are you a certified child care facility of the State of Oregon?

A Yes, we are.

Q And what are the expectations, you know, of receiving certification in terms of cleanliness?

A Okay. The certification is done by the health department and Child Protective Services and fire department. So the health inspector comes in, gives a complete health inspection as far as cleanliness and how food is prepared, all those kinds of things. And then John Thompson, our state certifier, comes and follows through with those expectations. We have one large certification per year in the month of September, and then we have two spot checks throughout, throughout the year unannounced.

Q Do you have, you or your staff, have continuing training in terms of meeting the state goals and, you know, other goals that the agency may have to continue quality care?

A We have 15 hours a year continuing ed, plus once a month staff meetings, those kinds of things.

Q Okay. Was this the last day that you saw Mr. Coutsoukis?

A Yes.

Q How long did Teddy Coutsoukis remain at the center?

A She finished the following -- well, she was enrolled for the following week, I'm not sure if she actually, how many times she came. I know Susan dropped her off and picked her up after that; but I'm not sure -- I know that she only was there two weeks, she was only enrolled for two weeks; I don't know how many days she actually attended.

Q And why did she not continue at the center?

A She felt that, uhm, she and Mr. Coutsoukis worked out an agreement where he would have Teddy in the home and have a nanny.

Q Okay.

A And that she felt at that time that that would be okay.

Q And in your observations, your own observations of Mr. Coutsoukis and his daughter, how would you describe it?

A Obsessive.

Q What do you mean by that?

A I just felt as if, that he, uhm, the way he held her, the way he dealt with her was obsessive; that he could not put her down, that he could not allow other care to be given. I just felt it was obsessive.

Q Did you ever see Mr. Coutsoukis outside the YMCA, the Rogue Valley --

A I did see him on one occasion at Sizzler.

Q A restaurant?

A A wrestler -- a restaurant, Sizzler, uhm, where actually the waitress made a comment to me about --

MS. LORI: Objection, hearsay.

THE WITNESS: About his behavior and how he had the table set all the time, and he hid the cigarettes in a plant.

BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q Okay. What did you actually see?

A I saw him, uhm, absolutely obsessing over her. It's difficult to describe.

Q He and Teddy were having lunch together?

A Having lunch, right.

Q Okay.

A And just touching her face continuously, continuously rubbing her hair, rubbing her face continuously during the hour that I was there. And she was eating and that kind of thing, but he was continually touching her that entire period of time.

Q Far beyond -- was he feeding her?

A No; he was just rubbing her face and her hair.

Q In your dealings with Susan Coutsoukis, was she at any time inappropriate in her dealings with you or your staff?

A No, I never felt that she was inappropriate. She was distraught on two occasions when she was crying and not knowing what to do and what was the best thing to do.

Q Thank you.



Q Karen, are you aware that Mr. Coutsoukis wanted to take care of Teddy himself?

A Yes.

Q And he disagreed with Susan's decision to have Teddy in day care?

A Yes.

Q And you're aware that he disagreed with Susan's decision to put her in the YMCA?

A Yes.

Q Prior to when, or before when Teddy started the YMCA, Mr. Coutsoukis, to your knowledge, did not have a tour of the place, correct?

A Correct.

Q Likewise, he had no information about the place, correct?

A Not from me.

Q You're aware that Mr. Coutsoukis thought that he could give more one-on-one attention to Teddy than the YMCA staff?

MS. SANZ: Objection as to relevance.


BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q The staff ratio during this time for staff to children was approximately one to six children?

A It's one to four, state licensing.

Q Is one of the reasons why your staff could not do an approximate 15 minute diaper change because of the lack of time to do so?

A Yes.

Q You're aware that Mr. Coutsoukis would get upset if he found Teddy left alone in a crib?

A Left alone in the crib in the sense of there -- no children are ever left alone in a crib. If they're sleeping, if they're playing, there's always a staff member in the room at all times.

Q Did he complain to you that Teddy had been left alone in a crib?

A No.

Q Did he ever complain to you about her having a wet diaper?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q You talked about being tied to some kind of --

A She was in a safety strap, uh-huh.

Q And he definitely complained about her being tied, correct?

A Uh-huh, his perception of being tied.

Q And you know Teddy is like a special needs child, correct?

A Yes.

Q And the toys you talked about, they're more geared towards children who are, are not special needs, correct?

A Correct.

Q So is it fair to say that these toys aren't really specifically designed for Teddy, with someone in her condition?

A Yes.

Q Do you agree it's better for Teddy to have one-on-one attention rather than like at a YMCA staffed situation?

MS. SANZ: Object as to relevance and speculation.

THE WITNESS: I don't think I'm qualified to answer that question. I wasn't -- Teddy was not told to me at registration that Teddy was a special needs child, and we didn't know until she got there the first day.

BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q Mrs. Coutsoukis did not inform you at the time of registration that Teddy was a special needs child?

A No, she did not.

Q Was the source of your information that she was a special needs, was that from Mr. Coutsoukis?

A Special needs, those terms were never used. Uhm, when I saw Teddy, I asked are there any special needs, because she wasn't walking at 14 months, those kind of developmental bench marks, she wasn't doing them; very thick glasses, those kinds of things. Uhm, but nobody ever talked to me about her special needs. I, educationally I felt that she had special needs, but those terms were never described.

Q Was the first time you saw her, was that the first time that you thought perhaps she had some kind of delay, or --

A Yes.

Q And who brought her in, was that Mr. Coutsoukis?

A That was the first day she came, yes.

Q Did you ask Mr. Coutsoukis about her condition?

A No, I did not. Because that first day, it was -- no, I did not.

Q Do you have any information about what her special needs were at that time?

A No. As far as, from my understanding from Susan later, that she had not been evaluated as to date, as yet. So all the needs were not assessed.

Q Well, Susan did say that there was something atypical about her daughter, correct?

A Not at enrollment, not until later.

Q Not until later?

A Right.

Q And was that not until later after you banned Mr. Coutsoukis from the Y?

A Well, it was only four days, so, yes, I would say.

Q Is it possible, then, that some of the confusion about why Mr. Coutsoukis was being so particular, because he may not have known that Susan did not tell you folks about Teddy's condition?

A I would say being particular is great, agitated is not. Being particular, parents asking questions, I encourage that, I encourage them to come and spend time with their children and to be there, open door policy, that kind of thing. The more questions the better as far as I'm concerned when parents are enrolling their children; but there's a way of treating the human race which did not take place.

Q Aside from his treatment of the human race --

(Short break.)

MS. SANZ: I might note for the record, this is the second time that Mr. Coutsoukis has called.

MS. LORI: Could you read my last question, please?

(The court reporter then read back as requested.)

BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q Don't you agree that he was concerned about how his daughter should be treated at your center?

A Yes.

Q Don't you agree that his goal was to make sure his daughter was given the best possible treatment?

A Yes.

Q Do you agree that Teddy, it's better for Teddy to be with her parents, or for her to have been in the day care center with the Y, given her condition?

MS. SANZ: Objection as to relevance.

THE WITNESS: I don't think I can make that judgment because I don't know the parents well enough to have, at that time, to decide that, where the best place was for her.

BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q Would you disagree with their decision that Mr. Coutsoukis should take care of the child along with the nanny?

MS. SANZ: Objection as to relevance again.

THE WITNESS: I can't say, I don't know.

BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q Did you tell Mr. Coutsoukis that Teddy and other babies did not belong at the Y; but that given that their parents did not take care of them, someone had to?

A Absolutely not.

Q In your observations of Mr. Coutsoukis with his daughter, would you describe it as a caring relationship?

A No, I would not; I would describe it as obsessive.

Q Was he attentive to her?

A To a point of being obsessive.

Q Was he affectionate?

A Yes.

Q In Teddy's response to him, did she indicate some sort of affection for him?

A At 14 months, she just, she would be held by him. I didn't see, I didn't see anything that would show me either way.

Q Now, you expressed an opinion that you thought Mr. Coutsoukis' behavior toward his child was obsessive, correct?

A Uh-huh.

Q Are you aware that the parents went through a custody evaluation?

A When he was enrolled -- or when she was enrolled in the program?

MS. SANZ: I'm going to object as to relevance, and will call for speculation.

THE WITNESS: Okay. No, I -- go ahead.

BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q Okay. Do you have knowledge that Mr. David Oas evaluated these parties as to who should be the custodial parent?

A No, I -- no.

Q Were you aware that in May of 1997, Dr. Oas indicated in his opinion, that Mr. Coutsoukis should be the primary custodial parent?

MS. SANZ: Object as to relevance.

MS. LORI: And if I may respond, she did indicate that Mr. Coutsoukis was obsessive towards his child as an opinion, and I think I'm entitled to test her opinion. So do you need --

THE WITNESS: No, I did not.

BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q Okay. Does it surprise you that Dr. Oas would make that recommendation?

A Yes.

Q Does the fact that that recommendation was made, does it change your opinion that Mr. Coutsoukis is obsessive?

A Absolutely not.

Q Hold on, let me just see if I could talk to him. If we could go off record for just a minute.

(A recess was then taken.)

MS. LORI: Back on record. And that the record could reflect that I spent about three minutes conferring with my client.

MS. SANZ: I have to state, Counsel, that none of us -- I wasn't taking time as to how much time you spent with your client, so --

MS. LORI: That's fine.

BY MS. LORI: (Continuing)

Q Do you recall whether or not Mr. Coutsoukis, on the first day he brought Teddy, or at least one of those days he brought Teddy to the center, if he brought a typed document about how to care for Teddy?

A Gosh, uhm, I don't recall receiving the document; but the other staff could have. I did not see a document, but it's not to say that it didn't happen.

Q Do you have any memory of that being discussed?

A No.

Q Do you have any memory of Mr. Coutsoukis talking about Teddy being belted on a rocking horse?

A No. It was belted on the thing that I described before. It was not a rocking horse. I don't have a rocking horse; we've never had a rocking horse.

Q Do you know if Mr. Coutsoukis complained about his daughter being in a crib rather than in the light, and the reason for that because there weren't enough staff to supervise her to be in the light? And if you don't understand the question, I'll just have madam court reporter read it back. Do you understand that question?

A Okay. That she was put in a crib in -- there's two rooms, okay, and one is the front room and one is the back room -- and she was put in a crib there because there's not enough staff to have her in the light?

Q Yes.

A Okay. No, absolutely not.

Q Do you remember telling Mr. Coutsoukis that the reason Teddy was not with the one-year-old or older children was because Teddy did not have the appropriate motor skills?

A No; because at that time, all of our infants and toddlers were together. We now have separate areas, but we did not at that time, so there was just one room.

Q Okay. So you have no memory of telling him --

A No, there was just one -- yeah, all the kids were together.

Q And Teddy was wearing cloth diapers; is that true?

A I don't, I don't know.

Q Do you know if Mr. Coutsoukis was concerned that the staff might not know, or should know how to change the cotton diapers with the diaper covers?

A I don't know.

Q Is it possible for children to be changed, then five minutes later their diaper is wet again?

A Yes, and we -- yes.

Q I have no further questions.



Q A few questions. Did Mr. Coutsoukis ever ask you for a tour of the facility?

A No, he did not.

Q Did he ever take the opportunity to ask you questions about what your services are?

A No. No.

Q Even the time when you saw him when he was in a much calmer state standing in the front of the building while his daughter was asleep in the car, when you were able to engage in a discussion with him, did --

MS. LORI: Objection as argumentative.

BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q Let meet continue. Did he ever go into a discussion then about services, or ask for a tour then?

A No.

Q When you saw Teddy, you suspected that she was a special needs child?

A Yes.

Q And why was that?

A Simply at developmental bench marks, it was 14 months and she wasn't walking; she had glasses. And, uhm, again, it's developmental bench marks that I could, something that, what my perception was.

Q There's some obvious signs?

A Yeah.

Q Did Mr. Coutsoukis -- you stated that no one discussed that Teddy was a special needs child with you --

A Right.

Q -- at that time?

A At that time.

Q Does that include Mr. Coutsoukis?

A Yes.

Q You eventually had a discussion with Mrs. Coutsoukis about it?

A Yes.

Q And she, it's my understanding, said that she was still being evaluated, she being Teddy, was still being evaluated?

A Right. Right.

Q You agree that Mr. Coutsoukis is concerned about his child?

A Yes.

Q That that is his intent when he deals with you?

A Yes.

Q But in his actual behavior, does he exhibit reasonable signs of concern, and reasonable mannerisms in dealing what he considers his opposition to care, the type of care?

MS. LORI: Objection as to qualification there.

BY MS. SANZ: (Continuing)

Q When he actually behaves, is he a person that's easy to deal with?

A No.

Q Does he -- to what degree?

A That he is extremely agitated and opinionated, interrupts continuously, doesn't allow you to have an explanation, doesn't allow you to have a conversation. When he's in that state, doesn't allow you to have a conversation about the whys and wherefores. It's his opinion, his opinion, and there's no gray.

Q There's no listening?

A No.

Q He does not listen?

A No.

Q Now, you deal with other families from different ethnic, racial, religious background?

A Oh, very much so, yes.

Q So the fact that Mr. Coutsoukis was from Greece and that was his culture, was not something that you saw would be a problem?

A I didn't see it as a problem, no.

Q What was the age group of children that were in Teddy's group?

A At that time, we were, we were licensed for children six weeks to three years; and at that time, after being opened for just a year, the children were all grouped together; so we didn't have the separate rooms like we do now. Uhm, so they were all together. And we used the back room as the nap room. So they were all together.

Q Thank you.

MS. LORI: I have no further questions. Thank you.

(The deposition of Ms. Vezina was then concluded at 4:15 p.m.)



) ss.

County of Jackson )

I, Debra J. Dugan, a Registered Professional Reporter and Certified Shorthand Reporter for Oregon, do hereby certify that, pursuant to the stipulation of counsel for the respective parties hereinbefore set forth, KAREN JANE VEZINA personally appeared before me at the time and place mentioned in the caption herein; that at said time and place I reported in Stenotype all testimony adduced and other oral proceedings had in the foregoing manner; that thereafter my notes were reduced to typewriting under my direction, and that the foregoing transcript, pages 1 to 37, both inclusive, constitutes a full, true, and accurate record of all such testimony adduced and oral proceedings had, and of the whole thereof.

WITNESS MY HAND AND CSR STAMP at Medford, Oregon, this 10th day of September, 1997.


Debra J. Dugan, RPR, CSR

Certified Shorthand Reporter

CSR No. 90-0095